U-701                                       September 8, 1942  
Interrogation of UN 1244/35S
  Gunter Kunert, Obersteuermann (Boatswain) by Lieut. Paul Kubala.  
     
 
Q. This won't be an interrogation.  We'll just have a jolly good evening together.  You can be happy that you are with the Army now.  Here is some whiskey, and here we have some beer.
   
A. I never had anything like this, since I have been here.
   
Q. Take this and enjoy it.  Would you care for a cigar?
   
A. Yes, thank you.
   
Q. It gave me such pleasure to learn that you were from the province of Brandenburg that I felt like showing you a few favors.  Did you get your money today?  And did the canteen get around to you?
   
A. Yes.
   
Q. That's fine.
   
A. Yes, the canteen arrived today.  It was like a celebration, and whenever it got around the boys clamored with joy.
   
Q. Help yourself.
   
A. The beer is really the best part.  That's what I miss here most.
   
Q. It has too much of a head.
   
A. Well, I shook the bottle.  Would you care for a drink?
   
Q. No, I don't drink too much.  Well! Whiskey and beer.  That is like being at home.
   
A. It really is like home.
   
Q. Have a taste of this.
   
A. Well, I don't know American whiskey, but I presume it is similar to British whiskey.
   
Q. It is a special brand.  Your health.
   
A. Your health, - - - This is good.  Oh yes, we had whiskey once, in the airplane which rescued us.  And then we had some hot coffee, and we were wonderfully revived.
 
   
 
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Q. This is Rye Whiskey.  In Germany you have cognac.
   
A. Yes, in Germany the whiskey is no good.
   
Q. You make some from potatoes.
   
A. Yes.
   
Q. That stuff is called "FUSEL".
   
A. Oh, those are potato spirits.  That does not taste well at all.  But they also produce some kind of imitation whiskey, which, however, cannot be compared to this one.
   
Q. This is the real stuff.  But there is another kind, which I even like better.  It is called corn whiskey.
   
A. That is made from corn?
   
Q. Yes.
   
A. This is really good.  I guess they just don't know how to make whiskey in Germany.  After all they have wheat too.
   
Q. But we had some imported Scotch whiskey.
   
A. Black & White?
   
Q. Yes.
   
A. We have that too.  I guess you don't have too much STEINHAEGER any more.  You know that brand, don't you?
   
Q. Yes.
   
A. I also had some potato whiskey in Berlin once when we went on a spree in the wedding section in Berlin.
   
Q. Oh, the "WEDDING" is a nice neighborhood.
   
A. It certainly is.  We went from one beer joint to the other.
   
Q. I also like Russian vodka.
   
A. What about Kuemmel?
   
Q. Oh, Kuemmel is very good too.  There is a restaurant in Danzig by the name of "DER DACHS" which sells their brand.  And then there is "DER KURFUERSTENHOF" and "DIE EDEL BRAEU".
 
   
 
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Q. I told you that I was in Mexico for a few weeks, where they have all kinds of tequila and imported wines.  I bought a bottle of "LIEBFRAUEN MILCH" - 1925 there.
   
A. Oh, 1925 was a good year.  Do people drink many alcoholic drinks around here?
   
Q. No, except for whiskey.
   
A. What about beer?
   
Q. Oh, they consume about as much beer as they do whiskey.  And then of course they have all kinds of sodas and they consume lots of ice cream.
   
A. Oh yes, sodas.  That reminds me of whiskey and soda.
   
Q. And then they have a drink which is like soda, only a little sweet.
   
A. Oh, that is like lemonade.  It contains carbonic acid.  By the way, we are drinking cognac, because we don't have too much whiskey.  But the navy drinks whiskey too, and also the merchant marine.  We get it in both services without paying any duty.
   
Q. How much does a bottle like this cost today when you get it through the navy?
   
A. In time of peace a bottle of "Black & White" costs three marks, but adding the duty you would have had to pay fourteen or fifteen marks.  But today the stores have been exhausted and "Black & White is a thing of the past.  I guess your stores have decreased too.
   
Q. Yes, but I can buy the brand in Mexico for $1.00.  In the United States you have to pay $4.00.
   
A. I have always said that whiskey and liquor are also expensive in this country.
   
Q. Yes.
   
A. Since when has the prohibition been lifted?
   
Q. In 1932.
 
   
 
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A. I guess you shouldn't get any alcoholic drinks at all in this era except beer.
   
Q. But the beer only had an alcoholic content of 1/2%.
   
A. If that was the case, I need not drink any beer.
   
Q. Oh, everybody made his own beer and distilled his own whiskey.  Everybody had a little brewery in his own apartment, and had his wife guard the door, so the cops could not get in.  Otherwise, if they caught you, it meant imprisonment for four or five years.  Today you can go everywhere, but at that time we had those secret beer joints.
   
A. Yes, I have heard about that from other sailors.  I myself have never been here before, but they told me that you could also get liquor on vessels.
   
Q. Yes, if you went beyond the three mile limit, you could get everything.  That was pretty tough.
   
A. How did that prohibition come about?
   
Q. It was introduced after the war.  Most of the men had been in France at the front and the elections were dominated by women.  Just one of those political maneuvers which we find hard to understand.  Well, it was an attempt, and when it failed, the appropriate changes were made.  That is the most wonderful thing about our system.  If a Government attempts to accomplish something and it fails, we are at liberty to throw it out.
   
A. That is true.
   
Q. You just live, and what you don't like you oust.
   
A. That is possible, because that is such an immensely rich land.  To name an example, I would like to mention the food at the hospital at Boston.  We ate the food that the other soldiers ate there and that food was really wonderful.  Those rare spices like paprika, and pepper, for instance, which we have been deprived of through the English blockade and the discontinuance of imports from India.
 
   
 
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Q. That is one of those troubles about the war.  All those little luxuries which you enjoy eating, you cannot get, while of course you get enough important food.  You get enough to eat over there, don't you?
   
A. That's right, nobody starves.
   
Q. But, as I said, the things that you enjoy, like this liquor here, and going out whenever you feel like it, and buying some silk stockings for your wife, are not available in times of war.
   
A. Yes, that is most deplorable, and the same was true in World War I.
   
Q. And the little people suffer deprivation, while the rich people go out of the country and buy the things they want.
   
A. Where?
   
Q. In foreign countries like France for instance.  I met an officer, who told me that he could go to Paris and buy anything he wanted to.
   
A. We did that, too.  We received our money in German currency and in France I received 24 marks extra every ten days, besides my regular salary, which went straight home, and which I did not even get to see.  Of course, if you are wealthy you can get your money from home and buy things.  But I did not buy so very much because what was I to do with all that stuff.  After all, I am not married, and my mother is an old lady, who does not need very much.  Of course, if you have a young wife or fiancee, things are different.
   
Q. What I cannot understand is that they drafted all those young fellows, of 18 or 19 years.  They have not reached the stage of grown-ups.
   
A. Well, the German soldier starts his career with 18 years.  The age groups have been thus assorted that inductions start at the age of 18.
   
Q. I can understand that they are being drafted at the age of 18, but that they are sent out on those submarines, that seems incomprehensible.
 
   
 
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A. That is, of course, not always practicable, because older people exercise better judgment, but you also have young men in high positions.  My Commanding Officer is only 29 years old, and it is the general opinion that a young officer can do more than an older one of 40 years.  Maybe things are different on a bigger vessel, but on a submarine everything depends on a commander, which you undoubtedly know, if you are familiar with U-boats.
   
Q. And, then it is a comparatively small boat.  I suppose you had about forty-five to fifty men on board.
   
A. Yes, but the fact counts heavily that you are below the water surface most of the time and being the commander, have to look through the periscope very frequently and size up the situation.
   
Q. Would you care for more liquor?
   
A. I really did not think that I would drink liquor tonight.
   
Q. I could not tell you that until this afternoon.  After all, I did not want to make you hopeful and then disappoint you.  I am a married man and have to go home very frequently.
   
A. Thank you.
   
Q. Liquor and beer.  I have certainly gotten out of the drinking habit, but I went through quite a few sessions in former times.  We went from one tavern to the next one, up and down the "Kurfuersten Damm".  Around 7:00 o'clock they had to wheel me home on a milk wagon.
   
A. We did that too, when we had any extended shore leave, because once you are on a trip you cannot get any liquor.
   
Q. Of course not, but on shore you have your favorite tavern.
   
A. We had one, which was the meeting place of all far traveling sailors.  It was very nicely furnished and they had excellent export beer and liquor too.  By the way, what happened to my buddy?  Has he also been invited to spend a pleasant evening.
 
   
 
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Q. I don't know.  It is possible.
   
A. He told me that he was interviewed by a captain this afternoon, whom he liked very much.  This captain was sitting over here this afternoon, if I am not mistaken.
   
Q. That is possible.  This captain has lived in your neighborhood.
   
A. Yes that is true.  He lived in Lueneburg.  He had also been in Berlin for some time and knew every place around there.  And then he even spoke "Plattdeutsch" (North German dialect).
   
Q. Yes, I have mostly been in Berlin and the province of Brandenburg.  You were born in the town of Brandenburg?
   
A. Yes.
   
Q. It is a beautiful town.
   
A. Yes, it is a beautiful little town.  OF course, I am not so familiar with it any more, because I have not been there for a long time.  I recall it because at that time my father returned from the war and became an employee of the German railroad administration, because soldiers were no more needed at that time.  And then we went to Magdeburg, where I attended school. 
   
Q. Many German soldiers came to the United States and South America, embarking at Hamburg.  I spoke to a German Officer in South America who was charged with the training of Argentine soldiers.  He is still there and has become a real Argentinean.  He nearly forgot his German, because he speaks Spanish most of the time.
   
A. Yes, those things happen very frequently.  Once a German has lived in a foreign country for twenty or thirty years, he forgets most of his German.  I once met a fellow who had attended school in Germany, but had lived for years on Hankow and Shanghai, and when he came to the German Club there, he could hardly speak any German.
 
   
 
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Q. I spoke to a Fähnrich (officer aspirant), Kammerer.  Was he on your submarine?
   
A. No, we did not have a Fähnrich on board.
   
Q. He was born in China.
   
A. Oh, he is from the U-Rathke crew isn't he?
   
Q. Yes, I spoke to him for several hours.  He came from Berlin.
   
A. Is he still here?  I thought he had left already.
   
Q. I don't know for sure, but he was here last week and I think he has left since.  It was either Saturday a week ago, or Saturday two weeks ago.   
   
A. Yes, we did not hear from him for two weeks.  I guess he was transferred to another camp.
   
Q. Yes, we spoke to him about "Tempelhof" because he lived there.  I lived there once too.  We also discussed "Tempel Hofer Feld", the big airdrome.  I wondered whether it is a military air field?
   
A. I couldn't say.  I don't know, but I do not believe it is.
   
Q. In former times there was a big amusement center, where they had shooting galleries and various places of amusement and dancing platforms.  It was called the "Hasenheide".
   
A. That was before my time.  I remember that I passed through there, but 1928 this section went through an extensive alteration.
   
Q. Yes, the started those before, and in 1928, when I was there last, I saw those alterations.  They had made an airdrome out of that.  That certainly was a tremendous airfield.
   
A. I don't think though that they made a military airdrome out of it.  I know this neighborhood very well.  I have lived in Neukoelin.
   
Q. Neukoelln, Hermannstrasse?  I know that neighborhood well.
   
A. There was a very big department store.
   
Q. I don't recall that one.  There was a "Wertheim" department store in the Potsdamer (street) and there was a "Tietz" on the "Alexanderplatz".
 
   
 
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Q.  - - The "Kaufhaus des Westenz"  (Department store of West Berlin) was on the Tauentzionstrasse, but I can't recall that there was another department store on the "Hermann Platz".
   
A. In the Hermanstrasse.  That was a skyscraper of 25-30 stories.
   
Q. I never saw that building.  Was that near the Hermannstrasse station?
   
A. I am not quite sure, whether it was.  My sister lives on the "Baumschulenweg" which is more in the southeast of Berlin.  That was near Treptow.
   
Q. Didn't they have a bicycle course there?
   
A. Yes.
   
Q. Then they have quite a few amusement centers and restaurants in Treptow and Strahlau.  That's all yours.  I don't like to drink beer and whiskey at the same time - You did not think that things would turn out that way.
   
A. No, I wouldn't have thought a few months back, that I would land in America.
   
Q. Yes the strangest things may happen.
   
A. You don't know how long mail takes from here to Germany.
   
Q. I could not say for sure, because your mail goes via Switzerland.
   
A. Yes I know.
   
Q. I don't know anything about the sailing schedules, but I can assure you that German authorities have been informed and have in turn informed your parents, that you have been taken prisoner.
   
A. Well, I have been away for a long time, but as long as they know that, I feel better.
   
Q. That is the first thing we do with the help of the Red Cross.  The message is transmitted by cable.
   
A. The Red Cross is an international organization, isn't it?
   
Q. Yes, they work by way of Switzerland.  The whole matter only takes two or three days.  The message, as I said, goes by cable.  Of course, we know
 
   
 
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Q. - - immediately when a U-boat has been sunk.  That appears in the evening paper.  They don't make a secret of it.
   
A. But the loss of our U-boat was not published.  Our Captain said that the story was withheld, because there was a big spy trial, which revolved around eight saboteurs, six of which were later sentenced to death, while two stayed alive, and people said that they had been landed from a submarine.  I have my own opinion about this matter, and don't believe that story.  Anyway, the papers later made a big fuss about it, and my commander was suspected to have landed those saboteurs.  They called him guilty and this is one of the things which you can't argue about, Herr Leutnant or Oberleutnant (2nd or 1st lieutenant).
   
Q. I am a 1st Lieutenant.
   
A. Thank you.  I was not quite sure about that silver bar.
   
Q. A golden bar signifies a 2nd Lieutenant, and one silver bar a 1st Lieutenant, two silver bars a captain, one golden leaf a major, one silver leaf a Lieut, Colonel, and the Colonel wears an eagle.
   
A. And they are followed by the generals with their stars.
   
Q. Yes, you can figure out how many stars everyone has.  That is very simple. 
   
A. To come back to that story, they just wanted to pin the guilt on him.  For that reason, I had to give some testimony which I should not have given.  We had not cruised along that part of the coast at all, where those fellows landed.  It really was a lot of fuss.  Well, anyway, the whole matter was shelved later on.
   
Q. Yes those fellows were executed.  That was to be expected.
   
A. The same would be the case, if I would reveal any big military secrets here and then go back to Germany.  They would simply stand up against a wall and shoot me.  I overheard upstairs a discussion between two of the boys, but whether they belonged to our boat or not I do not know.
 
   
 
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A. - - They were interviewed here the same way that I was by you and they said a Captain had threatened them, because they did not answer to military questions, which he asked.  I just cannot understand that.
   
Q. Oh, they are a bunch of silly kids.  They probably misunderstood the man.  We don't do such things.
   
A. Yes, but it has already happened that some of those fellows were interrogated by noncommissioned officers who threatened then with shooting.
   
Q. Nonsense.
   
A. You may laugh about it, but listen to this.  Do you know what happens to me in the hospital?  They tried twice to hypnotize me.  The fellow who was to do that was presented to me as a doctor.
   
Q. Maybe that was in connection with the Saboteur case.
   
A. No, at that time nobody knew anything about that story.  But they tried the same on my commanding officer, and on other fellows from my U-boat.  We were seven men when we dismounted from the airplane at Norfolk, and then we traveled a day and a night, after we had been floating in the water for two days.  We could hardly walk or eat.  And when we got into the hospital a Jewish fellow, a typical Galizian, tried to put me to sleep, and I thought I'd do him that little favor and acted as if I had fallen asleep.  And when he was sure that I had fallen asleep, he asked me questions:  "When did you depart and on which boat?"  I don't care if he wants to know that, but I am not permitted to tell him that, so I just said I don't know.  He also asked other questions like "How fast the water came in, when we were sunk", etc.  I always answered:  "I don't know".  And then later on came another gentleman who spoke a much better German, but I just did not cooperate.
   
Q. I can't understand that.
 
   
 
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A. A Captain there told me that this experiment would not be repeated.  One of those Naval officers presumably had called these hypnotists without the knowledge of his superiors.
   
Q. Well, we don't play those tricks on you.
   
A. Then there was a medical officer, with a rank equivalent to our Kapitän Zur See (Naval Captain) who also tried to question me.
   
Q. Drink your beer, before it gets warm.  This beer is really good, and the American tobacco is the best in the world.
   
A. Yes - - - I have never smoked such good cigarettes as these American cigarettes.  As you know, I was formerly with the merchant marine, and we get two of those long packs of cigarettes in the free ports for RM (Reichmark) 1.90.  The navy benefits from the same advantage.  They also get them free of duty.
   
Q. We pay $1.25 for 200 cigarettes, or 15¢ per pack.
   
A. We prisoners pay 12¢ per pack.  I see you have those "Camels" here.  We have them too.  They have a factory over there.
   
Q. The same people who produce our "Camels"?
   
A. The same people.
   
Q. They are good cigarettes.  I guess that was before the war and due to the facilities of the free port.
   
A. For that reason the factory was located at Hamburg and those cigarettes cost 8 Pfennigs apiece.
   
Q. I did not know the Germans smoked such good cigarettes.
   
A.

The Germans in general do not smoke many cigarettes, but those who do, used to smoke mostly Turkish, Egyptian, and Serbian tobaccos.  I see your cigar is pretty strong.  Many Germans don't like them that way.  We have two brands of cigars, which I don't like, but which contain certain foreign tobaccos which have been mixed after a certain prescription.
 
   
 
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Q. When I was in Germany, I mostly smoked the "Manoli" brand.
   
A. Oh yes. Manoli.  There are some pretty good cigarette brands in Germany.  I know of people who even smoked German cigarettes outside of Germany.  In the Mediterranean area and in Scandinavia people smoke cigarettes made in the South of Germany.
   
Q. But the American cigarette paper is so much better.  The German paper is too thick.  The paper here is thin, and therefore you don't taste it.
   
A. That is true, but the French have even better paper.
   
Q. I agree with you.  We buy French paper, which is being used by those who roll their own cigarettes.
   
A. I always did that too, but tobacco we used to get in little bags was too short-leafy, and for that reason it always dropped out of the paper.
   
Q. We have those cowboys here who do not have much time and don't make much money, only about forty dollars a month, and always stick out there in the desert, and they always make their own cigarettes.
   
A. The German sailors in general roll their own cigarettes.  When we had that Dutch tobacco with the long fibers, which did not drop out of the paper, we were very well off with that rolling habit.  The tobacco with the short fibers always drops out.
   
Q. There is a certain technique to it, which must be carefully applied, otherwise you break your fingernails.  Roll the cigarette once very speedily, apply moisture, with your tongue, and then roll the ends.
   
A. We did that too.  We are fortunate insofar as we can buy much stuff here, because we are the crew of the only boat which has a number.
   
Q. Didn't the others get any money today?  We promised to give them some money.
   
A. No, they did not receive any.  I have two neighbors there from U-Lemke who said so.
 
   
 
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Q. I spoke to those fellows this morning and told them that we would see to it that they receive some money.
   
A. No, they don't have any.  We are twenty men up there and I sent some of my money to a few fellows.
   
Q. Well, we have to send some up to those fellows.
   
A. I came into a new room recently!  By the way, how soon do you think our mail will arrive?
   
Q. That takes a few weeks.
   
A. But the incident with our boat took place four weeks ago.  We did not get any for weeks.
   
Q. Well, you have now been transferred to Army jurisdiction and we have also been promised that those fellows will get their money and their stuff from the canteen.
   
A. If that service is given out to us and we will be able presently to meet in the wine parlor, we shall be satisfied.  It seems as though we are now in a wine or beer parlor.  I heard once at Fort Devens that prisoners could purchase beer there.
   
Q. Yes, they can buy everything they need - the same as our soldiers do.
   
A. Is it possible to have money sent here from Germany?  I did not write about it because I was not certain.
   
Q. I don't think so.
   
A. I did not believe so either, but I tried.  Of course, we get only 10¢ here.  I cannot understand it.  Officers get full pay here, but we get exactly
 
   
 
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A.  - - the same here as Oberfeldwebel as we did as Matrose for 18 years in Germany.  We get 10¢ here.
   
Q. It is the same with American prisoners.  Officers receive full pay and non-commissioned officers and enlisted men get only an allowance.
   
A. I agree with that.  In Germany it is no better.
   
Q. The United States upholds the international agreement in this respect and I think Germany has also conceded to that.
   
A. One can hardly make 10¢ reach.  That is enough only for bare personal necessities.
   
Q. In a short time you will have more freedom and you will have the privilege of working and earning more money.
   
A. Yes, I will be glad when the time comes.
   
Q. You know if you work here you can make more money than in Germany.
   
A. Well, yes.  That is perhaps so.
   
Q. I spoke to a machinist from the German Navy last week.  He did not understand why we could pay him much more for his work than he would get in Germany.  I asked him how much money he got in Germany as machinist and he said about eighty marks a month.  I told him that isn't much money.
   
A. Well, they make different amounts each week.  One week they make seventeen marks, another eighteen or nineteen, so there is a difference up to ninety marks.
   
Q. A machinist here makes 250 or 300 marks a month.  They can save money and drive 8-cylinder automobiles like the "big shots" in Germany.
   
A. I believe that is still true.  In Germany that is also the case, even during the war.  Although I am not of that trade, I know that eighty marks is only a low salary and not the usual one.  But in addition to such a salary, he gets a free place to live and eat.  If a machinist is really capable, he works in a large factory and gets a larger salary.  In regard
 
   
 
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A. - - to the value of money, there is a difference.  In Germany you pay 750 mark for an automobile which costs $1000 here.  Of course, the prewar value was four marks and 20¢ for one dollar.
   
Q. One can see the difference in the value.  You can say that for $1.00 or one mark you can buy so much.  I know that in Germany a meal costs one mark and here you can buy one for 50¢.
   
A. Well, America is naturally a much richer country than Germany and one can afford much that we cannot think about.
   
Q. Yes, that is quite so.  Of course, our salaries are gauged accordingly.  You are Obersteuermann (first pilot) in the Navy.  In the Army that is the same as -
   
A. Oberfeldwebel (Master Sergeant).
   
Q. That is the same in our Army as the  -
   
A. First Sergeant.
   
Q. No, master sergeant.  That is the last noncommissioned officer.
   
A. We have one more who is higher.
   
Q. Which non-com is that?
   
A. The Stabsoberfeldwebel, which existed four years, and began one year before the war.  They are the ones who served 18 years and were Oberfeldwebel during the last war.  Their place was taken by younger men who then became Oberfeldwebel.  If one should become Stabsoberfeldwebel, he would get a higher salary.  I don't know many of your noncommissioned officers.  Let's see, There is your Corporal, Sergeant, Staff Sergeant and - -
   
Q. The Technical and First Sergeant, and finally the Master Sergeant.  The Technical Sergeant and First Sergeant get the same salary.  The First Sergeant is called the 'Spies' in Germany or the  -
   
A. Vice-feldwebel.  They do not have him any more in Germany today.  If I get a higher position than now, I will be a boat navigator.
 
   
 
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Q. Have some more Whiskey and beer.
   
A. (Drinks)  As an Oberfeldwebel in the Navy, I have the same duties as an officer in the Army, but I get only the pay of a Master Sergeant.  This causes the rub between Army and Navy.  For example, I had to go to school ten years.  This distinction causes the eternal conflict between Army and Navy.  Most Oberfeldwebels have a car when soldiers see them they say "There comes the big Navy".
   
Q. Yes, I think that this difference exists between Army and Navy all over the world.
   
A. Yes, we in the German Navy get rations three times daily and on the boat twice daily.  For 72 marks as prisoner I get a salary which is put in my bank.  For 12 months, I get allowance for board and room and this also goes to my bank.
   
Q. If the war lasted for five or six years and you were still on the U-boat you would be a rich man.  But if the war turns out bad you will get nothing.
   
A. I do not think so.  My mother takes care of my money.  She will see to it that it is put to good use.
   
Q. 200 mark is your salary?  How long have you been in the Navy?
   
A. Seven years.
   
Q. The same man in our Army gets 5% increase every four years.
   
A. Doesn't it depend upon his rank?
   
Q. No, everyone gets that much more.  A man who is eight years in the service then gets about $180.  In the last war a man started with $30.  For other grades the pay was $42, 56, 72, 126, 138.
   
A. I knew a man once who got $158 after 18 years of service in the Red Cross.
   
Q. I don't believe that.  He gets more.  He should get $210.  Was he married?
   
A. No.
 
   
 
- 17 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. A married man gets an additional allowance of $35.  He may have figured on being pensioned.
   
A. That is possible.
   
Q. After thirty years of service he should get $148.  Was he in Germany?
   
A. Yes, he said that was the most pleasant time of his service in Cologne.
   
Q. I spent a lot of time there.  I walked to Baden and to Holstein and back again.  Then to Karlsrube and to Friedrichshafen where the Zeppalinhangers were and then to Lindau.  That is a very fine city.  I was also in Venice.  It is so dirty and stinks.
   
A. In Egypt and Africa the living conditions are terrible.
   
Q. Were you in China?  It looks much better there.
   
A. Yes.  There were many poor people there.
   
Q. I have seen quite a few rich families there.  I have a Chinese friend here.  You should see his new house here.  It has eight large rooms and w cellar.  You ought to see it.  This whiskey is getting better.
   
A. I wish I could enjoy this together with my friends.
   
Q. It is too bad that you have no friends in America.  They would do much for you.  This man, Rathke, received a box of cigars from a friend in our Navy.
   
A. Well, our officers here are more fortunate because they are paid and, consequently, can buy cigars and smoke.
   
Q. Your submarine was hit by an airplane wasn't it?
   
A. It was a big four motored airplane.  I saw one like that in Boston, and they have one around here too.  And the pilot, a young fellow of no more than 24 or 25 years, later paid us a visit.  His flying base was between Newport News and Norfolk.  So we got together when he learnt where we were stationed.  I asked the captain of the flying boat, which
 
   
 
- 18 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A. - - rescued us, no airplane with a 6 man crew, whether he came from the same flying base as the other fellow, but that was not the case.  Nevertheless the pilot of this bombing plane must have gotten the news about our whereabouts, because all of a sudden arrived.  He was a red haired fellow.  I also spoke words of praise about his achievement, because it is really hard to hit a submarine.  We also had a flying officer on board who had been over here, and then returned to Germany before the beginning of the war, and had joined the naval air force.  I know you have a similar organization.  This flying officer had piloted aircraft, which were based on naval vessels, and also Stukas (dive bombers), while he was with Rommel's forces in Africa.  He returned from there and joined us on board the submarine.  He said it was suicide for a U-boat to engage in battle with an airplane.  He said it was also most difficult to hit a submarine, because they just disappear.
   
Q. If you submerge, can you just navigate like that and zig-zag around?  This is really entirely new to me.  After all I am a soldier and I have never experienced anything like that.  Can you really navigate in a crash-dive?
   
A. No, we dive to certain levels and alter course, sometimes we dive, alter course, and dive again.
  We saw quite a few airplanes on the return trip, which we can easily distinguish, as long as the sky is not cloudy.  But when you have those big white cumulous clouds and an airplane comes from behind those, you cannot see it.  But they can see the submarine, because they can see through gaps in the clouds.  And when this airplane swoops down through the gap, having seen us, while we did not see the airplane, the matter becomes dangerous.  Yes, those cloud formations are very dangerous, but generally you can see the airplane first, especially if you have good glasses, and as soon as it appears, an alert signal is sounded, and you
 
   
 
- 19 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A.  - - submerge.  In some cases it also happens that an airplane surprises us.  That happened near the English coast and other places where we have been.  There it can happen that you submerge too late, especially at night, when the moon is out.  Moon shine is very dangerous too.
   
Q. That must be a most interesting profession.  We are sitting so snugly at home, and don't know how you fellows feel out there.  And I am sitting here in all security and have to have a prisoner of war tell me about his experiences out there.
   
A. Be happy you can be at home.  But in a way you are right.  Shortly after the beginning of the war I was sitting at home as an instructor, teaching in school, but then I had volunteered for submarine service already before the war, and they just did not call me, and there were always other fellows ahead of me.
   
Q. That is just the difference between the army and the navy here.  They never tell us anything.  They merely say "Well, we got another submarine" and that's all.  And now I come to you, and you actually tell me how such things happen.  That is highly interesting.
   
A. Don't you get together with the naval officers here?
   
Q. Occasionally, but we share very few interests.  After they interview you they turn you over to us, and we just give you the good old routine interview, which revolves around a description of your life.  And that's all there is to it.
   
A. I was never actually interviewed, except for that incident in the hospital, but that was not exactly an interrogation.  Then there was a naval lieutenant (jr. Gr.) who interviewed me, and I just told him whatever I could tell him, which was not much, but he seemed satisfied.  And here all our boys were interrogated again.  I noticed that, because the walls are none too solid, and you can hear through them.  They were called for, and then they came back and we waited, but nobody came to get us.
 
   
 
- 20 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. Have you ever been in Hawaii?
   
A. No, I have never been there, but there is nothing more beautiful than the South Seas and the Indian Ocean.
   
Q. I lived in Hawaii before my marriage.  Your beer is getting warm.  I am glad you are enjoying yourself.
   
A. This is really nice.  I have been together with my roommate for two weeks and we always talk about the same things.  If you are up to there all the time, you can't always sleep.  It is mostly too warm for that.  This is really a funny climate.  Sometimes it is very cold, and even this morning was pretty cool.  After all this is only September.
   
Q. The pleasant weather is more like our usual December weather.
   
A. Then the heat in summer must be terrific.
   
Q. Listen to this.  My home is located in Kentucky.
   
A. I am not quite sure where that is.  That is not near the sea.
   
Q. No, that is more towards the middle west and is partly mountainous.  There the weather varies so much, that on one day you have 70 or 80 degrees and the next day you have snow and ice.
   
A. You have a different system for calculating heat or cold.  You figure with Fahrenheit degrees and we with Celsius.  Do you know the difference?  I knew it once upon a time.
   
Q. Yes.  If you take the Celsius system, the boiling point of water is reached at 100 degrees, while, if you take the Fahrenheit system, the boiling point is reached at 210 degrees.
   
A. That's right.  And the freezing point is reached at 30 degrees.
   
Q. 32 degrees.
   
A. That's right, and the freezing point of the Celsius system is 0.  I see the difference.  They took our temperature in the hospital, and I always peeked and then could not explain to myself what the matter was.  Oh yes, you also figure with inches and yards.
 
   
 
- 21 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. And you figure with centimeters and meters and kilometers.
   
A. Do you know how many kilometers go into a mile.
   
Q. The German mile is equivalent to 7-1/2 kilometers, and our mile is a little longer than 1 kilometer.
   
A. 110 yards are 100 meters.  Is that correct?
   
Q. Yes.
   
A. By the way, we also have the nautical mile.  That is an international measure.  It corresponds to 1882 meters.
   
Q. Your pound is a little heavier than ours.
   
A. Yes, I think there is a difference of about 5 gram.
   
Q. About that much, I guess.  And our pound is subdivided into 16 oz.
   
A. And how much is a pound?
   
Q. Our pound amounts to 450 gram.
   
A. That's right.  All that stuff is listed in the "Buden" (German orthographical dictionary).  There the symbol for your pound is "lb."
   
Q. That is correct.  That is an abbreviation.
   
A. I guess you have to get used to those things.  Does this difference in measurements not present difficulties, especially where the export of merchandise is concerned?  After all, the entire continent of Europe with the exception of England subscribes to the metrical system.  The English figure with feet and inches.
   
Q. It has also been attempted to introduce the metrical system here, because it is an international measurement.  It was originally introduced by France.
   
A. That is true.  The meter originated in France.  It is so much easier, because all metrical measurements are multiples of ten.  1 decimeter equals 10 centimeter, 1 meter equal 10 decimeter, etc.  It becomes more difficult in the field of agriculture.  Take "Acker" and acres and all those measurements.
 
   
 
- 22 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. We figure here with "chains".  In German that would be "Kette".
   
A. When you come to technical appliances, though, our system is like yours.  We also figure the diameter of screws in inches.  1000 inches are a "Zell".
   
Q. That is correct - My goodness, I certainly perspire.
   
A. Yes, it is really hot tonight.  By the way, that naval officer told us that we would go to mountainous country.  He said that the camp was not ready yet, and that we had to stay here in the meantime.  But the climate there is supposed to be very nice.  It is in Arizona or Utah, or somewhere around there.
   
Q. Yes, if you go there you come into a very nice climate.  That is due to the high altitude.  The country there is not cultivated.
   
A. Must be similar to some parts of the "Siebengebirge" ("Siebenbuergen")???  I guess that country represents the good old "Wild West".
   
Q. Yes, Buffalo Bill's territory.  Do you know that this guy really lived?
   
A. Yes I do.  In Germany we have translations of your "Wild West" stories.  By the way do you know the German author Karl May?
   
Q. Yes he wrote stories of this type.  And did you ever read "Leatherstocking"?
   
A. Yes, I have read that and Karl May.  I wonder if you ever heard about "Winnetou" and "Old Shatterhand".
   
Q. Yes I have also visited quite a few places near the U.S.-Mexican border, which are mentioned in those tales.
   
A. Is that in the state of Texas?
   
Q. Yes.
   
A. Well, I don't know so much about the United States.
   
Q. Oh they are very beautiful.  There are 48 of them, plus Alaska and the territory of Hawaii.  The latter has some kind of Dominion status.
   
A. You mean like the British have Canada?
 
   
 
- 23 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. No, they are in an even better position.  Last year Hawaii asked to be incorporated into the system of states, but then the war broke out and the matter was dropped.
   
A. Alaska belongs more or less to the United States.
   
Q. Yes, they are under supervision of our Government.
   
A. Well, anyway, this naval officer said that we might go to Arizona.  Is that very far from California.
   
Q. No, it is not very far.  I wish I could show it to you on the map, but we have only maritime maps here.
   
A. They were used during those interrogations.
   
Q. It is very possible that you might go to Arizona.  You will like it, because wherever I have been, and I have traveled through Europe and in China and Hawaii, and I have come to the conclusion that there is no country in the world which could be compared to the United States.
   
A. Oh, I don't doubt your word.
   
Q. That goes especially for the Southwest.  If you go by train from San Antonio, in the heart of Texas to El Paso, which lies in the extreme South western corner of this country, you may close your eyes for a few minutes and every time you open them there is a new and different sight.  You could actually think that you were in a different world.  Have some more beer.
   
A. I have done quite a bit of drinking already.
   
Q. Then you'd better be careful.  But at least finish your beer.  We can put a cork on the liquor, but not on the beer bottles.
   
A. I think I can take care of that.  I did quite a bit of beer drinking at home.
   
Q. I don't like to mix beer and liquor.
   
A. Oh, was always mix them.
 
   
 
- 24 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. However, at home in Kentucky I like to drink the homemade liquor, which is made from corn.
   
A. At home in the villages they also distilled liquor from corn and potatoes.
   
Q. Tell me some more about your experiences on the submarines.  I like to listen to those stories, because I am sitting here at home and have to listen to other people's adventures.  I see those pilots once and a while, who go out with their planes.
   
A. Well the situation in Germany is like this.  The submarines are practically the only naval components, which carry the war to the enemy, because we don't have a large navy.  We did not have time to construct one, and of whatever bigger surface vessels we had, we lost three cruisers in the Norwegian campaign.  They are not very big vessels but a cruiser is worth her money.  Then we lost the heavy cruiser "Bluecher".
   
Q. Put those other cigarettes into your pocket and smoke them later.
   
A. Thank you.  You know about the Bluecher, didn't you?
   
Q. Yes, about the Blucher and the Karlsruhe.
   
A. That is true.  By the way, the Bluecher was a brand new ship.  I have sailed on this cruiser myself.
   
Q. Was that a big vessel?
   
A. 10,000 tons.  You call then heavy cruisers here.
   
Q. What complement does such a cruiser have?
   
A. About 1300 to 1500 men.  That goes for German vessels.  A British unit of the same size carries only 500 to 900 men.
   
Q. That is quite a difference.
   
A. Yes, we have much bigger crews in Germany.  I don't know myself how this comes about.  The British have more simplified models and have therefore less men on board.  Whether that is an advantage or not will probably be decided upon in this war.  I don't know so far, whether it is or not.
 
   
 
- 25 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A.  - - Really big vessels we don't have in Germany.  I guess you know that the Bismark was lost.
   
Q. Yes, I heard about that.
   
A. The Bismark sank the Hood, and then on the return trip she was caught by the British fleet.  That was really a brand new vessel.  It was probably the fastest and best battleship in the world, and was undoubtedly superior to the Hood.
   
Q. How big was the Bismark?
   
A. 36,000 tons.  The Hood was a vessel of 42,000 tons.  It was bigger than the Bismark, but older.  And then the British navy did not improve so very much.  The sinking of the Bismark was accomplished through an unlucky torpedo hit, which destroyed the propellers.  So the Bismark could not move anymore, and was subsequently lost.  Only about 170 or 200 men of her crew were saved.  There is no exact account.
   
Q. Out of 1500 men?
   
A. Oh no, there were more.  There were 2300 men on board.  That really was a big vessel.
   
Q. What a tremendous loss.
   
A. Undoubtedly, it was a big blow to our Navy.  The Tirpitz has also entered the fields of action, and has been damaged in the meantime, which was told to me since I came into captivity.
   
Q. Oh yes, I spoke to a fellow here who had been a member of the Tirpitz crew.  I forget his name, but he was a more mature age, about 38 years old.
   
A. I think I know him.  He was also with the merchant marine.  Was he a member of the Rathke crew?
   
Q. No, he was an Obergefreiter (Seaman 1st class).
   
A. Was his name Mickey?
   
Q. That is correct.  He told me that he was on the Tirpitz, and then transferred to the submarine branch.  He is a Hamburger and speaks "Plattdeutsch".
 
   
 
- 26 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q.  - - Do you speak that dialect?
   
A. Sure.  After all I am a seasoned sailor.
   
Q. This fellow is very much worried about his family.
   
A. I can understand that.  After all, you never know what happens if you live in Hamburg.
   
Q. He should have taken his family out of Hamburg.
   
A. Well. maybe his wife has to work.  All women in Germany who are childless or have grown children have to work.  Only those with small children which are dependent upon their mothers are exempted.
   
Q. He has a daughter of 5 years.
   
A. Well, then she probably does not have to work.  Maybe there was no opportunity.
   
Q. Nevertheless, if I had a wife living in a town like Hamburg, I would try my utmost to get her out of there.
   
A. Oh those bombing attacks are not so bad after you get used to them.
   
Q. Listen, if I knew my wife and my two children were in that situation, I would try my utmost to protect them.
   
A. That is true.  Formerly they had this bombing hysteria in Germany and after each attack the post offices were flooded with letters inquiring after the well being of relatives, but now they are used to it and have calmed down.  You must take into consideration that we have been in the war for three years.  As I said before, the submarine branch is the only one to conduct naval warfare.
   
Q. What happened to all the capital ships you had, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisneau, for instance.
   
A. I think the Scharnhorst is laid up in Kiel.  She was damaged pretty badly, but it is possible that she has returned to duty by now.
   
Q. You also have the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin.  Did you ever see her?
   
A. Yes I did.  I don't know her exact tonnage, but she is a big beautiful vessel.
 
   
 
- 27 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q. For the sake of comparison, is she very much like ours?  Have you ever seen an aircraft carrier belonging to the Allies?
   
A. Yes, when I came from Singapore and passed through the Suez canal, I saw a British aircraft carrier.  They looked pretty much the same except for a few details and special appliances, but then every vessel has certain individual appliances, according to her nationality.
   
Q. Too bad that we have to see those things out of a landlubber perspective.
   
A. I'll tell you.  If you are a professional soldier and you have taken part in successful submarine campaigns, it gives you a feeling of pride.  It is a marvelous sight to see a tanker explode into mid air, or a battleship, or even a submarine chaser.  The latter ones are only small vessels, hastily built, and do not represent much value, but when they go on their tours, they cause quite a bit of trouble for the submarines.  Well, we gave a few of those the works, and when we entered home port after accomplishing this feat we were received by a band.  You probably know that every submarine, when it enters port, displays a little flag for each vessel which it has sunk.  We also have little crosses and all kinds of U-boat insignia.  I don't know whether you are familiar with those.
   
Q. Yes, I have seen the U-boat insignia.  They are oval shaped.  It is similar to the "Sportabzeichen" (Decoration for athletic accomplishments).
   
A. Without wishing to boast, it is really admirable how those tiny vessels, those submarines, can cross the Atlantic and stay on this side for such a long time.
   
Q. Within the last two weeks quite a few have been sunk though.
   
A. That is true.  That is tough luck.
   
Q. That is due to airplanes.
   
A. The first months, when we came over here in January and February, not too many submarines were sunk.  I know for a fact.  But of course the anti-submarine defenses improve.  The same was the case with the British
 
   
 
- 28 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A. They had defenses all the time, but they were never as good as they are at present.  When I face these British destroyers today, following my course in a submarine, I have to be damned careful.  After all, they have been accompanying convoys for three years and have developed a certain routine.
   
Q. The airplanes do quite a bit of damage these days.
   
A. In my opinion an airplane is not as bad as a destroyer.
   
Q. When did you arrive here?
   
A. On the 6th of August.
   
Q. Then I must have thought of some other men.
   
A. Did you take any more prisoners coming from submarines, which were sunk by airplanes?
   
Q. Yes, several were sunk in the Caribbean sea, but those who escaped had drifted around for hardly more than an hour when they were devoured by sharks.  Once a fishing vessel reported 18 men floating around on the water, but they had all disappeared when rescue arrived.
   
A. None of them survived.  Well I have seen some sharks, too, but they were probably not man eaters.  That was near Cape Hatteras.
   
Q. Oh, they are not man eaters.
   
A. I did not mention the fact anyway so that my comrades would not get excited.  By the way, it has happened very often, also on our side, that airplanes report submarines as having been sunk, when this did not correspond with the truth.  If a submarine is hit, some of the oil escapes to the surface.  In that case, the exterior compartments which contain the fuel for our machines, have been hit.  Air escapes at the same time, and a tremendously large oil spot appears on the surface.  And, of course, the pilot thinks that the submarine was sunk.  When one of those compartments (bunkers) had been hit, the submarine can still escape.
 
   
 
- 28 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A.  - - Of course, it has lost part of its combat mobility, but nobody can say that it has been sunk.  I know of boats which returned from this side of the ocean in the above mentioned state.  I know, for instance, a commander, Lieutenant (Sr. Gr.) Harding, personally, who returned from American waters with a submarine which was heavily damaged.  The entire bow was bent.  He showed me a photo of his submarine, from which you could have deducted that logically it should never have returned.  And I have also heard of another case.  There was another one named Sternbach.  After crippling much English shipping his boat was heavily damaged by the British, but her returned.  Do you know the name Harding?
   
Q. No, I don't know any of those fellows.
   
A. Yes, Harding stayed here along the coast and sank 45,000 tons of shipping.  Harding was engaged in activity all along the coast of North, South, and Central America, and was second in command of this theater of operations.  He sank all enemy ships that came into sight.  Both Harding and Toch earned the wreath of oak leaves for their success along this coast.
   
Q. Oh yes, I heard the name Toch before.  Someone who was with him in the service mentioned him to me.  Well, I was sent here by the war minister who told me that there were so many prisoners here who are scared to death and they say "Oh, here comes another one of those interrogators.  We won't have anything to do with him".  However, since I lived in Germany, I am very much interested in what you are telling me about your U-boats and airplanes even thought I am not an air pilot or a U-boat officer.  I like to hear news about Germany.  This is the first time that I have heard anything much about U-boats.  I have been only twice in an airplane and the pilot almost scared me to death.  He asked me to go home with him which I did gladly because 70 miles is too far to travel every week to see the family.  But what a ride that was!  A U-boat I have only seen in pictures.
 
   
 
- 29 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A. It is really a simple piece of machinery.  The first time that one goes into a U-boat it is a rather complicated sight.
   
Q. I never was in one, but I have seen pictures of the inside apparatus and I thought  "What a terrible thing that is".
   
A. That's true.  One must be aquatinted with it first.  It certainly is difficult to get out of it after it has been sunk and one travels mostly under water.
   
Q. Is that right?  How many times were you under water?
   
A. 17 or 18 times.
   
Q. How was it when your boat was sunk?
   
A. When she went down I caught myself in an air bubble and counted the men as they came out.  After the boat had sunk to about 50 feet they stopped coming out, and I left later.  More of them came out and I did not see them again.  One broke a leg and his back.  After our boat started sinking, things went fast.  I was the eleventh to leave the boat.  I was the Helmsman.  Of course the pressure under water is terrific, much more than a normal human being can stand.  The air cannot escape either, and attaches itself in bubbles to certain objects.  So I was caught in one of those air bubbles down there.  Well I finally did get out, after ten men had escaped before me.  However, after me another 20 men got out.  They must have also been in one of those air bubbles.  They were in the front part of the boat.  They were off duty or slept, and when we were hit, they collected their senses fast and thus saved themselves.  By the time the boat hit the bottom many had perished because they could not stand the pressure.  After all down there prevails a pressure of several atmospheres more than above the surface, which is so severe that it makes the blood vessels burst.
   
Q. Of course, it must be very difficult to get out of there.  I have a friend here who works in a tunnel.  He too has to undergo an assimilation process.  Whenever they go down there, they have to go into a chamber, where they
 
   
 
- 30 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
Q.  - - are slowly set under pressure and when they ascend the same procedure takes place.
   
   
A. With divers the same precaution is exercised.  When they ascend, they have to go into a small chamber, where the same pressure prevails that they experience under water.  Then the pressure is slowly decreased until it is equivalent to normal air pressure.  That takes an hour or even more.  After this submarine disaster I had a terrific earache for three weeks.  The pressure which is exerted on the eardrums reflects upon the interior of the ear and causes that pain.
   
Q. Well, anyway, you can consider yourself most fortunate that you escaped with your life.
   
A. Yes, we did not even figure on surviving.
   
Q. Did you swim for fifty hours?
   
A. Yes, and during that time I had hallucinations.  I visualized shady trees, because it was so terribly hot, the sun burnt down on us all day long.  However, during the second night that we spent on the water, the sea calmed down and we were able to sleep.
   
Q. Could you sleep floating around on the water?
   
A. We had a life jacket, which was filled with air between my commander, Lieut. (Sr. Gr.) Degen and myself.  We attached ourselves to it and fell asleep.  Of course, we slept only lightly.  Yes, my commander and I were clinging to one life jacket for fifty hours, yet I have not seen him again since I was taken prisoner.  Is there a chance that I might see him again.  I guess not.
   
Q. I guess you well see him again in the next camp you go to.
   
A. I thought officers went to different camps.
   
Q. No, the camps are the same, but they live in different barracks and lead their daily life separately.
 
   
 
- 31 -
 
     
     

 

     
   
     
 
A. I mean, you will understand that you would like to be together with a man with whom you have shared a life jacket for fifty hours.  During the interrogations I asked several of the naval officers whether there was a possibility that I could converse with him for at least fifteen minutes.  After all we have no secrets to exchange, and we both know how to behave in this case.
   
Q. He has not yet been transferred to our jurisdiction.  He is still under the jurisdiction of the navy, but when his transfer takes place, we might be able to arrange it.  They might still investigate him in connection with this case of the 8 saboteurs.
   
A. You will understand our situation.  When I was captured, I was totally nude, because clothing hinders your movements while you swim, and irritates your skin.  Of course at nights it became very chilly, and so we massaged each others legs, and after sundown he asked me whether we would ever see the sun again, and I tried to comfort him.  Of course, after the war is over, we might meet again in Germany, but it may take very many years until that happens.  Just because he is my commander and were are attached to each other I would like to see him.
   
Q. I have kept other promises, which I made to you, like seeing to your supply of cigarettes, and I shall also try to arrange this meeting.
   
A. You can participate in this meeting because we have no secrets to be exchanged between each other.  I have already experienced one refusal by a naval officer.  I realize that we are enemy nations, and that I am a prisoner of war, but then we are both soldiers.
   
Q. Yes, we are.  We also take this into consideration.
   
A. I realize that.  Anyway for me the war is over.  Being a soldier I regret that.
   
Q. As a human being though, you have every reason to be satisfied.
   
A. I am satisfied, because by rights I should be dead now.
 
   
 
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Q. You were favored by fate.  I myself wish at times that I could go into the battle.
   
A. But you are a family man.  If you have dependents, it is a different story.
   
Q. That is true, too.  I have heard a great deal about Degen, and I hope that I shall have an opportunity to see him.
   
A. By rights I should not judge my superiors, but I am am old man and know people when I meet them.  Lieutenant Degen was a good submarine commander, a good sailor and a fine fellow.  He took care of his men on board, and if I have to go to war again I would like to serve under his command.
   
Q. Well, perhaps I could bring you two together for an hour or two.
   
A. Only that I could see him once more face to face and recount those events.  It so happened that during the last hours we spent he was in a daze.  I had the physical power to withstand the ordeal while others didn't.  Of the 16 men which were around me, only 9 survived after a lapse of 24 hours, and 4 after 48 hours.  Our machinist officer was amongst those, who succumbed, also several noncommissioned officers.  Some of them went crazy.
   
Q. I can understand that.
   
A. In some cases the body prevails, and in some cases it is sheer will power, which makes them withstand this ordeal, but I have found that in most cases their physical strength was greater that their spirit, and they went crazy.  It is terrible to look into a fellow's face with whom you have lived on board for months, and realize the state of his mind through the gaze of his eyes and hear him talk like a madman.  And you just can't push him away, because there are only three or four life jackets left.  On the other hand, we were forced to push some of the younger ones away when they went mad, because they tried to open the air valves of our pneumatic life jackets.  You can't attach them to you.  After all, their minds
 
   
 
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A. - - were befuddled, and life jackets belong to the living.  After a short lapse of time those fellows die anyway.  But if you have gone through these experiences, you have a desire to see a man like Lieutenant Degen again.
   
Q. Of course.  We have some of the crew here who survived.  Do you know the names?
   
A. Yes, there are Schwende, Seldte, and Haus, from the contingent of enlisted men.  And then there was one noncommissioned officer, Grotheer.
   
Q. He was a chief radio operator, wasn't he.  He told me that commander Lemke had been picked up.
   
A. Yes, he was fished up by rescuers lying on a rubber balloon boat.  He was dead.
   
Q. I was told that a week before this tragedy took place he received the news that he had become the father to twins.  That is really terrible.  By the way, I spoke to a fellow, a machinist mate, who told me about this incident too, but I don't know from which boat he was.  Here is something which I would like to ask you though.  Those young kids of 18 and 19 years, who come in here and complain about everything, react very stupidly to simple questions.  For instance, I ask them about their life on the U-boats, because I am curious to learn about such things, and they tell me that they cannot answer these questions.  I asked them about their occupations, and one of them told me that he was a torpedoman.  Of course, I know what a torpedo is, but all those technical details, like electric and acoustic torpedoes are things which I don't understand.
   
A. Acoustic torpedoes do not exist at all.
   
Q. What does the expression mean anyway?
   
A. Acoustic?  That pertains to the sense of hearing and sound.  That acoustic torpedo business is sheer nonsense.  They are merely kids, but if you would
 
   
 
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A. - - ask me a question which pertains to military matters, I would tell you politely that I could not give you an answer, because after all I am still a soldier.
   
Q. Of course.  In their case I was merely curious to know about the circumstances of their capture, and everything that was connected with it.  I take a personal interest in such things, but they just sit there and laugh.
   
A. That is not right, but they have actually been told to disclose only their name, rank and serial number, address, and other nonmilitary information.
   
Q. I guess we have to break this up.  Maybe I'll see you within the next few days.
   
A. I would be happy to see you.
   
Q. Maybe I can arrange a meeting between you and your commander.
   
 
 
(Calls for Guard).
 
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
   
 
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